Nordic Heritage Museum Vanishing Generation Interview with Art Pehling

  • By Dick Sacksteder
  • Posted 9/22/2004
  • Essay 5758

Art Pehling (b. ca. 1917), of German heritage, was interviewed by Dick Sacksteder on June 7, 2000 for the Vanishing Generation Oral History Project in the Nordic Heritage Museum. Art describes Ballard in the 1920s: the streets were mostly sand and gravel, horses pulled the fire wagon, "it was all forest east of 19th Avenue," and when you wanted a chicken dinner, Kastner's Meat Market would chop off the head of one of the hens in the coop next to their store."

This is an interview for the Generation Oral History Project about Ballard. Today is June 7th. I'll be interviewing Art Pehling. I should spell that. P-E-H-L-I-N-G. We're at his home in North Ballard, which is a part of Seattle, Washington, and my name is Dick Sacksteder.

I was born December the 4th, 1913 at 6746 19th Avenue Northwest, which is right on the southeast corner of Salmon Bay Park.

My father was in the house moving business. He had been in other kinds of business before my birth. My mother was a homemaker. I had one sister who was 13 months older than myself. Her name was Frances. What else do you want? 

Oh, well, let’s --

My grandmother and grandfather, on the Pehling side of our family, were born and raised in Germany and came -- I don't know what year they came, but they came to Springfield, Illinois. And part of the family was born there. My father was born in Springfield. And then they homesteaded in South Dakota and lived there for a good many years. There was nine children in the family, seven boys and two girls. My dad was the second oldest. He had one brother that was older than himself. But they moved out to Ballard in 1900. There was -- farming wasn't that great, I guess, and anyway they came out here where there was plenty of work. My father first went to work in a shingle mill, but that wasn't to his liking, so he got himself some horses and hauled different types of things. One thing that he did do was haul garbage, and then he hauled sand and gravel for Salmon Bay Sand & Gravel.

My mother's family came to Ballard; their name was Hensel. And they came to Ballard in 1890, for somewhat the same reasons that my -- the whole family -- I don't think in the Middle West in those days that the economy was that great. Now, I'm not sure about that, but it just seems to me like an awful lot of people came out, especially to Ballard. All of these people that I can remember in my early age were German. The majority of our -- well, practically all of our friends were German. And if you go back through the history, I'm sure that most of the people that owned businesses were German descent.

How did the Norwegians and Swedes fit into this?

Well, the Norwegians came later on as my recollection is. They came -- the Norwegians came out after they had separated from the Swedish people, and they came out to do the fishing. And then the Swedish people came later on. Most of the Swedish people were carpenters or builders or of that sort.

You talked about Salmon Bay Gravel. What other businesses were around that far? That's way back.

Well, Ballard Avenue was the main district for businesses. There was one that I remember real well was Hauff's. It was they called a dry good store. And right next door was Jacobsen's Shoe Store, and up the street a little bit was Peterson's Hardware, and across the street from those was Wilson & Kreitle, the Ford Agency.

That was in the days of Model T's.

And then Nelson had -- well, he had a service station at first right on -- one would be Dock Street and Leary Avenue, and then he got so he could sell Chev cars. So that's where his original Chev agency was, right on Dock Place and Leary.

Was Market Street developed at all at that time?

Well, yeah, somewhat. What is now known as -- I think they call it the Ballard Building. It was originally built by the Eagles. They dug out for the building, and then there was a wood fence around it for a good many years, as I remember, because they couldn't finance building the building. And finally they built it, and then there was a movie in it, a theatre, and some other things in there. And then they started a hospital up on the third floor with 30 beds.

In that the same building?

In that building.

What about restaurants, were there any restaurants?

I don't remember too many restaurants. But something that lingers in my mind an awful lot is on Saturdays in the evening we would go down to Ballard. The Dexter Horton Bank was on the corner of Dock Street and Ballard Avenue, and my dad used to go in there and talk to some of the other businessmen. And in the meantime, my mother and my sister would go up the street to the several shops that were up there and do their -- and after they got -- we got through with that, we would go up to Market to the Majestic Theatre and go see a movie. And then across where Bergen Place is now, there was, I'd call it an ice cream parlor. And after the movie we'd go in and get some ice cream, soda or milkshake or something of that sort, and then walk back from Ballard up home, which is a mile and a half, something like that.

What were the streets like in those days? Were they --

Well, mostly -- mostly just sand and gravel.

Well, that theatre you talked about, is that building still there or is that --

They are rebuilding it right at the present moment.

That is the Bay Theatre? Oh, okay. So --

It was the Majestic Theatre at that time.

I wonder when that was built.

Well, I can't ever remember that it wasn’t there. And I'm remembering back 80 years.

Okay. It's been awhile.

Okay. In the building that I was just discussing about, the Eagles built, there was a theatre in there by the name of Bagdad. And there was another theatre on Tallman and Market Street called the Empress. And another thing that I remember about Ballard Avenue, there was some -- well, I suppose they called them saloons those days. The Old Home, which now is -- what is it, Maggie’s, or something like that? Maggie’s Hat. And there was another one down lower on called the Owl. Those, I can remember. I'm sure there was more because they used to say that every time they build a new tavern or where they dispense liquor, they'd build another church in Ballard.

What about the churches? What do you remember about them?

Well, I was born in -- I mean, my original church was Evangelical and Reform Church. It's in the 1700 block on 62nd. The church building is still there. It's a white building. And that particular church was -- it was really all German people.

Now, were they carrying out their ceremonies in English or German at that time?

Both. We attended that church until, I think if I'm not mistaken, it was in 1924, and we went up to a Presbyterian church, which is Woodland Park Presbyterian Church at that time.

Now, was Ballard separate from Seattle at that time?

Yes. It seems to me, if I'm not -- I know that other people would know -- that Ballard went into the City of Seattle in 1916.

Some other things about Ballard -- one thing that has always been in my mind, was the streetcar that ran from Ballard Avenue and 20th, came up 20th to 67th and crossed east on 67th to 15th. It was a little streetcar that probably would hold 20 passengers.

Was that the entire line?

Yeah. Later on somebody figured out that we should be getting some of the people from the Greenwood district down into Ballard where the different stores were, and they ran the streetcar up 15th to 85th, and across 85th to Greenwood.

Now, who -- was that a private company?

I cannot tell you. I think it was a private company.

Because I was wondering, when did you or your dad get a car, because you said you were walking into Ballard and back?

I think it was just about the end of World War I when we got our first Model T. Then my dad bought a -- what today we’d call a pickup. He bought that. And then later on he was -- he did an awful lot of raising houses and then digging out the dirt from underneath and making basements under houses. He had a good old shovel.

The house that you lived in, did he build that?

My dad built the house that I was born in, in -- well, I don't know whether he started it before 1910 or not, but he built it especially for my mom. They got married in 1911, and the house was pretty much finished by that time.

Can you describe the house for us?

Well, at that time it was one bedroom downstairs and one bedroom upstairs. They had a full basement, but no concrete slab; it was dirt. And my mother used to do her washing down in the basement. Of course, those days, you know, you didn't have any electric furnace or -- we always cooked with wood.

Was there indoor plumbing?

Yes. Now, my grandmother's and grandfather's Hensel's place, it was 1707 West 57th. And I can remember when I was first down there, they had what we called a backhouse. And later on they built a bathroom on the back porch.

But Ballard had a water supply?

Yes, but they didn't -- I cannot tell you whether we had a septic tank or whether we had sewer at that time. I don't -- I don't really know.

Where did you go to school?

Well, I went to Salmon Bay, which is -- was between 63rd and 64th on 20th. And then my mom got into a little fight with a teacher, and so we, my sister and I, went up to Whittier, and we were there for a couple of years. Then Whittier got too full of students, so my sister and I graduated from Webster, which is where the museum is today.

Now, was that building the same building that's there today or was it --

What, the --

When you went to Webster, was that --

Yeah uh-huh.

It was the same building?

From there, in 1928, I went to Ballard High School and graduated from Ballard High School in 1931.

How did you meet your wife?

How did I meet my wife? Well, that was in 1935, in the first part of 1935. We used to have quite a bit of snow, and we were sledding up on 71st and Greenwood and would sled down to Green Lake. And I broke my leg hitting something, and so I was -- I had a broken leg and was on a cane and whatnot and went to a dance out at when it was Parker's; it's still called Parker's. And I went out there with a fellow that was working for my dad who was also married to one of my cousins. And while we were out there, he introduced me to his cousin, which was my wife. And that was the last of me going out with any other girl. She was for me, and so we were married in June in 1936.

So now you're married; you have to go to work for real.

I worked for my dad. When I was working before I got married, Dad paid most of the fellows that were working for him 45 cents an hour. When I got married, Dad says, "Oh, now that you're married, I think I better raise you," so he gave me 50 cents an hour. But I never have, in all of my life, I've never worked for anybody. I worked for my dad, and my dad passed away in 1942. So I took over the business and ran it for a good many years. And my son was in business with me, but he did not like house moving, so we went into the remodeling business.

So you were house moving for quite awhile?

Oh, yes.

Tell me a little bit about that, ‘cause that sounds interesting.

Well, one of -- a job that I can remember -- this was before my father passed away -- there was an eye, ear and nose clinic at Swedish Hospital, and it was a brick building. It was in the way for them to expand. I'm sure that I'm right that this was in 1939. And we moved that building about three blocks and kept them in water, light, telephone. They even operated on some tonsils and adenoids while we were moving.

How did you do that?

Okay. But anyway, that's one -- oh, after my dad passed away in 1948, I moved the Armory at the University of Washington. It had to be moved so they could make their medical school.

I marched in that Armory.

In the Armory over there?

That was a big one. Yeah.

Old wood building?



Where did you put it?

Well, what year did you --

'41. 1940 –41.

Oh, okay. Well, we moved it directly sideways -- I can't remember the footage, but then we turned it and came up to -- what was the street up there? Anyway, I can remember I got $18,000 for moving that building and made $9,000 which was a lot of money in those days.

Oh, yeah. What year was that?


'48. Oh, boy. What other moving experiences? I mean --

Well --

(Continuing) -- the things really don't break apart when you move them?

Oh, well, you’ve got to be careful and whatnot. It isn't that big a job, really. You’ve got to know what you're doing, that's all. At one time I was the biggest house moving concern in the state of Washington. In -- I can't remember when we built the freeway --

In '51 or something like that.

I -- I don't know what the dates were, but anyway, in building of the freeway, there was a lot of houses on it, and I bought 85 houses from Northgate up to the county line and moved them off to other spots.

My gosh. What's the farthest you ever moved a house?

Oh, that's a hard thing to say. I've moved them probably four or 500 miles on a barge.

Oh, really? Okay.

On the streets. I moved 45 houses up at Neah Bay into the Sekiu River, and -- yeah, there was 45 buildings I moved up there.

What was the name of your company?

Pehling & Son.

Pehling & Son, uh-huh. What are your fondest memories about living in Ballard, working in Ballard, knowing people in Ballard?

Well, of course, everything we did in those early days was family, period. It was family. Because we had the large house of the family, all the dinners, like Thanksgiving and Christmas and anything like that, was at our home. My mother was a -- not very big, she was probably five two, five three, and she worked taking care of the family and whatnot and doing all the cooking on a wood stove.

Who cut the wood?

Well, after I got old enough, it was me. My grandfather was in the wood and coal business, and he used to get most of his wood out of Seattle Cedar. And when I was young, of course, he had his horses and my dad's horses and some other horses. Matter of fact, there were eight horses in a barn that was right alongside of our home.

This was -- he was in Ballard, too, with his --

Oh, yes. He lived at 1707 West 57th.

Where was his coal and wood --

He had his horses up at our place and his wagon and whatnot --

Oh, he wasn't --

He delivered it in horse and buggy and a wagon.

Horses in those days, how did they care for them and where did they come from?

Well, I have no idea where my dad bought the horses. I can remember two of the horses were "Chub" and "Trammy". When I was young, and especially on Sundays or weekends, it was my job from the time I was old enough to go take the horses out of their stalls and take them outside to drink water. And then, of course, the hay was upstairs in the barn and had to shove it down from upstairs and then give them some oats.

You had the barn, you had the house, you had all -- that's all gone now, right?

The house is still there.

The house is still there.

The house is still there.

How much land did they own at that time?

My dad had -- let's see. He had where the house was and then he had 75 feet below, that's where the barn was, and then there was a little -- little house that my dad and his two brothers built for my grandma Pehling. She lived there in that little house. It was kind of a one-bedroom house with a bath in it. Something that I remember was when I was a small -- I'd run out to the street and look down. And when I thought my grandpa would be bringing his horses back for the night, and when he'd be coming up the street, I'd run down the street, and then my grandpa would pick me up and put me in -- so I could get to ride maybe a block.

How did they deliver the coal to him?

Well, they had bunkers where they -- I can't remember. He did not -- most of the time they didn't use too much coal that I can remember. Most of it was wood, because we had a tremendous amount of wood. There was a big mill down in Ballard called Stimson's Mill. That was fir. And then, of course, there was seven or eight shingle mills along after the Locks was built. I think the Locks was completed in 1916. Before that time there was a -- what they called Salmon Bay, which was kind of a water, somewhat the same spot as Salmon Bay is today. And the original streetcar that went from Ballard down to downtown Seattle went across on 14th, and then, after they -- the canal was built, they built the bridge, and then the streetcar ran on 15th.

So the original bridge didn't have to raise, there was no traffic?

No. No, it was just a kind of a trestle. And then you went along 15th down to the Bay, and then it was all trestle from there clear into downtown. And then later on they dredged out of the Sound, and where Elliott Avenue is today, that was all stuff that was dredged out of Elliott Bay.

What was the waterfront like in Ballard way back in those days?

Well, see, they didn't have the canal as such. They had some water in there, and that's where they built the shingle mills and other mills. And they would -- I know some of the logs and whatnot came by -- well, most of them came by train. And of course, when I was young, if I went from my place two or three blocks north and just east of 19th, it was all forest.

Oh. Bear around?

Oh, I imagine. I don't know. I can remember going camping at what is North Beach today. We camped out there during the summer. There was a little stream there.

Was there a lot of, I mean, fishing boats out on a -- what -- did they have docks?

Well, you see, the fisherman didn't come until after the Locks was built, and then they had -- they could come in. Otherwise most, I think -- most of the fishing boats were up north up -- I don't know -- way north in the sound, because there was no place for them to come.

Well, then, there wasn't much activity on the Ballard waterfront at that time.

No. No, except for the mills. And I think that's a good reason why a lot of the people from the Midwest came out to Ballard because of the mills and whatnot. I would imagine, I don't know this, but the wages were higher in the mills, and they could -- quit farming in the Midwest.

How close was the logging at that time? You say it was all woods going north of here. Was there any logging?

Well, there was logging right there. And they didn't, at that time, my earlier age, they didn't have any trucks, so the logs were put on railroad tracks. There used to be from -- I can't remember where all it ran, but there was what we call an interurban, ran from Everett, and it went down through Fremont and out to Renton.

Yeah, I remember that. When did your folks get rid of the horses finally? How long did that --

Well, it seemed to me like Dad finally got -- my dad and my granddad, right after the war, I think they got some trucks.

That probably changed the landscape of Ballard.

Well, yes. Of course, the street in front of our house was just gravel. I can remember when they paved it.

About when was that?

In the ‘20s. Fiorito Brothers paved the street in front of our place.

Stop for a –


The original school I went to was kindergarten, and that was the Washington Irving School, which is the Ballard Hospital, Ballard/Swedish Hospital. That's kind of hard for me to say, Ballard/Swedish Hospital, because I was on the Board of the Ballard Hospital when we originally built it. But that's where the grade school -- I went to kindergarten. Then, from there, I went to Salmon Bay, Whittier and Webster, and I think we discussed this, and Ballard High. And I also went to the University of Washington for a couple of quarters. The other schools in Ballard, at that time, was Adams, Ross, and Loyal Heights. And James Monroe was built -- I think probably the first class that was in James Monroe was in 1930. I'm pretty sure that's right. So I didn't get a chance to go to James Monroe.

You talked about being on the Board of the Ballard Hospital. What -- how many activities were you into, clubs and boards and so forth in your time?

Okay. After my father passed away, there was a service station on Leary and Market that we bought all of our gasoline and all that type of thing called Hughbanks and Jasperson. Mr. Hughbanks, Clarence Hughbanks, after I took over the business, he wanted me to join the Kiwanis Club. I went to him with -- to a couple of meetings, and I went to some Lions Club meetings, and then I seemed to like the fellows that were in the Kiwanis better. And so, in February of 1943, I joined the Ballard Kiwanis Club. I am still a member.

I was president of the Ballard Kiwanis Club in 1948. My son, later on, became a member of Kiwanis, and 30 years later he became president of the Ballard Kiwanis Club. I was on the Scout Board. I was on the YMCA Board. I was on the church board. I was on the Board for the Ballard Commercial Club. And did I mention about the hospital? I became a member of the Board for the Hospital, I think it was in 1948 and continued on for ten or 12 years. But in the meantime, we -- there was that small hospital up in the top of what we called the Eagles' Building, and it was 30 beds. And we had a – we’d go out pretty near every night and knock on doors, trying to get people to pledge some money to build a new hospital.

And finally, in 1954, the hospital was dedicated. In the meantime, the original contractor that -- went broke building the hospital, and somebody else had to finish it. I can't remember the names of the contractors at this time, but anyway that was the original hospital. And when I was a member of the Board, there was 36 members of the Board from the community, and out of those 36 there were 12 that really ran the hospital, and I happened to be one of those.

All these people that you worked with, can you think of some that were outstanding that you remember or close friends that were important in Ballard?

Well, somebody that everybody knew in -- as a matter of fact, he had a lot to do with the breakwater, was Dwight Hawley. The Bennetts who ran City Ice down on Shilshole.

What did Mr. Hawley do?

He was an insurance man, and then he ran the Eagle Building. As a matter of fact, my sister ran the elevator in the Eagles’ Building.

I’ve got to go look at that building. I wonder if it's still got an elevator going.

No. Yeah, it’s the elevator, but nobody's running it. That was a long time ago before they had the automatics. But, you know, that was actually my sister's first job was running the elevator in that building.

There's still a drugstore across from the hospital called Lafferty's. His dad ran a drugstore on the corner of the building where Lombardi's is today, and then, of course, down from that building they built some other buildings, and Penney's was in there for years.


Yeah. And then, if you would go across the street from the Eagles' Building, there was a building there, and I'm trying to think of the other name, Rolf -- I don't mean Rolf. Olaf Wiggen had a partner in the mortuary business, and I can't remember what his name was. I'm getting old, can't remember names. But anyway --

Now, the original Wiggens was part of the people you knew?

Oh, yeah. I know Olaf Wiggen; I knew all of the Wiggens. But anyway, then they moved up -- there was another mortuary where Seattle First National Bank is now, and they bought that outfit out. And then the -- Olaf Wiggen got rid of -- I don't know what happened, but anyway, he ran the business himself. And then, finally he built that building up on 57th and 20th. Mittelstadt’s was another mortuary, and it was where Ballard Blossom Shop is today. He was in business for years and years and years, and then his son took over, and finally they went out of business, and Wiggens bought them.

How well did you know all these different people, Mittelstadt, Wiggens and all the --

Well, when you talk about Mittelstadt's, I can remember our family going down and visiting them. I don't know. They were just good friends, and we’d go down there and visit like families did. Of course, people don't understand today. What did we do for entertainment? We didn't have radio, and we had very dim lights. So my sister and I, in the evenings a lot of times, we’d be playing some kind of games or maybe reading some books or something.

But you did have electricity all your life, even when you were very young?

Yes. Yes. I -- actually, because of my father being what he was, we had a --what would be called a modern home, had a bathtub and a toilet and all that. And then down in the basement, Mother had a gas plate down there. Years ago they didn't have the modern things for washing, and she used to boil the clothes in a copper tub.

And did they have electric irons, electric toasters --

No, no, no, no, no.

How did all those things work?

Well --

Oh, there's an iron.

You heated your irons on the wood cook stove, and usually you had two or three of them to keep hot, and that's what you used, cast iron irons. See up on top of the wall there, above the roosters?


That's what you used to set these on so you wouldn't burn something.


Something that -- on the corner of 56th and 20th, in my early age, it was not called 20th. There’s some things in the streets, some plaques, for the names of those streets, and I don't know -- I really don't remember what they were. But anyway, there was Kastner's Market, meat market. I can remember them real -- they had a little cart, a one-horse cart. They would deliver meat all over Ballard in that one-horse cart.

Well, in those days they delivered everything, didn't they, milk, bread?

Oh, yeah. There was a grocery store across where Lechners' Law Office is today. Seems to me like the name was Schuessler’s; now we're going back to the German. Yes, before -- before the fisherman could have their fishing boats --

(End of side one)

We were talking about Kastner's Meat Market. Kastners were also German. Their meat market was right on the corner of 56th and 20th, on the northwest corner. And then across the street was, it seems to me like the grocery store was Schuessler’s. A little hard going back that far, but anyway.

And then where Wiggens Mortuary, which is on 57th and 20th, there was a house there that my mother and her family lived in for awhile before they moved over close to 17th. And Kastner's Market used that property for a long time with the chickens. If you wanted to buy a roasting chicken or a fryer chicken, you went in and they chopped off the head and there was your chicken. You can feather it if you want to.

That's real fresh. What about some of the -- you talked about deliveries. Was there any bakeries that you recall that were --

I can't remember. The reason why I don't remember bakeries too much is because my mother, on Mondays, would bake bread, period. And then, during the week, if she wanted to make some cakes or something like that, she did that. But on Mondays was always the day that she made bread.

Who -- what were -- who was the dairy at that time?

Seems to me like it was called Royal Dairy. Now, that was on Leary right across from where Wilson Motor is today. I remember we used to go in there and get ice cream. Then J. P. Wall, an attorney, right down where Leary and 20th comes together, he had a little law office in there. And kitty-corner across, there was a pretty good size hardware store called Union Hardware. Hardware stores were quite the thing in those days because in those days you didn't have the self-made things, you made them yourself.

That’s right, and hardware store people knew what they were selling.


As you think of all these people, the movers and shakers, and everything, aside from yourself, who would be the most outstanding person that made Ballard go?

Well, I really don't know. Of course, the Nerdrums had Salmon Bay Sand & Gravel. I've know -- let's see, I think it's the fifth generation of Nerdrums that have had something to do with Salmon Bay Sand & Gravel. And then, of course, the Stimson family had the big fir lumber mill, and --

Were they Ballard people, Stimsons?

Well, they had their office -- the office building is still there; it's a brick building.

Oh, yeah, that's a nice building.

Okay. And then they owned a lot of property up above 85th, I would say from 15th to 24th, and from 85th to maybe 95th, maybe more than that, I don't know. Stimsons owned a lot of property in there, and that's where the Olympic Golf Course was.

Oh, yeah.

Okay. When they built the Olympic Golf Course, of course, there was a lot of trees that they cut off there, and then they had the stumps, and of course, they would blast a lot of the stumps. And my dad had a Fordson tractor with two winches on it, and he used to go pull those stumps out.

When was that?

Whenever they built the golf course.

What did they do with the stumps, pile them up and burn them?

Pile them up and burn them.

So, what, Stimson then actually built that golf course?

Well, yeah. And then I can't remember when it was -- the golf course went out of business. The Ballard businessmen tried to buy that property from Stimson, and Stimson family, but we just couldn't raise enough money to. So then they plotted it into housing, the Olympic Manor, and what is now -- oh, come on -- what now is Blue Ridge, that was -- that property belonged to the Boeing family. That was plotted and sold into lots.

Did the railroad always run through as it does now?

Through Ballard?


Well, I think -- I don't know whether that railroad bridge that's right there by the Locks, I don't know whether that was built after the Locks or not. I don't know, but there was another railroad bridge that was on about 12th Northwest or something like that. There was a railroad bridge across there. And then, of course, I can’t ever remember that there wasn't a railroad track along Shilshole, which I think was where they brought a lot of the logs and whatnot to the --

That whole area along Shilshole, was that developed at all when you were a kid?

Well, of course, you're talking about the mills; that was all mostly mills. And then after the Locks was built, then there was some ship building in there. And . . .

I was thinking up towards Golden Gardens, that whole stretch, was there anything in there?

No. Well, there was a thing -- oh, gosh, I can’t -- it was kind of a cabinet shop or something, Tregoning’s. He was a pretty good size thing. And then later on they went out of that business and started building small boats.

They had some pictures that I’ve brought along. I wonder if they are bringing memories to you.

Newspapers, one was the Ballard News, and the other was the Ballard Tribune. The Ballard Tribune was run by Mitchells. And the News changed hands quite a few times, but Mitchell was a city councilman for a good many years. And his boys, they had restaurants around Ballard for quite a few years.

That looks like the old Majestic -- no, I don't know. I don't know whether that's the Majestic Theatre or not. There was some furniture stores along Market Street for a good many years, too. And then, of course, the library has been there on Market Street, was there for years, Carnegie. I think it's an antique store now.

Yeah, it is.

Okay. If you go over -- I guess it's a nightclub of some kind, that's where the fire station was. And in behind the fire station was quite a hole down there, and the firemen built a kind of a playground down there. And kids around Ballard, they had baseball teams and all that kind of stuff, and they did their playing down there. There was another fire station that was close to my home, which was on 16th and 73rd. And --

Were those the days of horses?

That was horse drawn. They had three horses on the wagon.

Well, did they have sirens and everything just like today?

Seems to me like it was a bell. You could hear it for miles. Of course, that was only a few blocks from my home. Yeah. You could hear that bell go, and then you knew there was fire someplace. And when we were kids, sometimes we'd chase to see where the fire was.

I bet you chased the ice wagon, too.

Well, yeah, it used to stop it, and then we'd get some chips of ice. Our icebox was on our back porch.


Audio cassette interview by Dick Sacksteder, June 7, 2000, Nordic Heritage Museum, Seattle.

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